The End: The Original Assembly

This is really great news, but I’m still upset that they decided to hold all this material back from the series I DVD.

Yes, it was clearly part of a five year plan, constructed solely by Andrew Ellard, so that he could rip Red Dwarf fans off, because it gives him sexual pleasure, and that’s the only way he can satisfy himself. You’re a sick fuck, Ellard.

Oh, holy God.

Somewhere in a darkened office, Andrew is laughing at us all. “They all fucking hate the Remastered,” he’s thinking. “Well, I’ll show them. I’m going to make this the most incredible DVD release ever, so that any right-thinking fan would step over their own mother to get it. The moral quandary of the Remastered episodes being the most essential Dwarf purchase imaginable will FRY THEIR BRAINS! Muah hah hah HAH!”

And it’s working, dammit. This release is going to be obscene in its brilliance.

And he’s wanking while he thinks this.

> why wasn’t all this footage dragged out for the original Series 1 release?

Money, basically. The Seires I/II budget ran to very limited rushes access. Transferring from one-inch is very, very expensive, as is just pulling those tapes from the archive. Add to that the fact that we have no Series I editor’s notes, and thus no accurate breakdown of what is on any given tape, and…ugh, even finding stuff is a pain.

Interesting side-note - if it hadn’t been for the Smeg Outs and Remastered projects, we wouldn’t have had VHS run-offs of some rushes. Without those, we wouldn’t have had deleted scenes at all for I and II - at that time we could have afforded SOME high-quality transfer, OR the VHS run-offs, but probably not both!

On top of which, it was all extra edit off- and on-line time, which is also damnedly expensive. So we included scenes that were deleted, plus those most significantly changed. Now, we’d be all completist about it - back then, it just wasn’t possible. So, for example, “Everybody’s Dead Dave” - same dialogue, different setting - was left behind.

I’d have loved to have included everything at the time, but as with the doccos this remains a better opportunity than not doing it at all.

> when requests were made for Holoship Xtended, the word was that there wasn’t the budget to do it.

To be fair, this is a very different beast. It’s just an assembly, as-shot. No sound mix, no effects work, no added music - just as Rob, Doug and Ed would have seen it for the first time. It’s a relatively simple creation. A full Holoship Xtended would have required more work by more expensive people.

Added to which, the myth of that episode’s length is kinda bigger than the reality - Emohawk was also 40+ minutes, and many others coms close - and it’s not something Rob and Doug had especially hankered to see re-cut; certainly SOME of the removals wouldn’t have been re-inserted anyway. (See also the Xtended eps, which stil have deleted scenes.) Between that, cost and disc space it just wasn’t worth going there.

> And just look at that recreated “APPROXIMATELY THREE MILLION YEARS LATER” caption - it looks exactly like it would have done back in 1988!

I want to get this one on the record - that is THE CAPTION from 1987. It was played to the audience at the time. We’ve keyed in the Dwarf shot as the team intended, but the caption itself is wholly original source.

Cool, innit?

^ Nice.

Sorry, Andrew - your post was blocked as spam, once again, for some reason, and I only just noticed that it wasn’t published.

WOW! Well this box-set certainly is shaping up to be a must-buy.

I did wonder about whether it was cost reasons that it wasn’t all dragged out for the Series 1 release, actually.

As for the caption - bloody hell! It crossed my mind that that might have been the original caption, and then I dismissed it - I thought that would have been created in the edit…

Kiss me, Andrew. Kiss me right now.

it really is a good time to be a Dwarf Fan at the moment isn’t it?

> Kiss me, Andrew. Kiss me right now.

Slag.

I’m just really, really happy. Wow, pretty much sums it up.

I *still* can’t believe the original caption was dug up!

I’m off for a wank.

This had BETTER come out in Region 4.

> John can make things happen by saying it would be interesting if they did.
> How can we (all us lot) harness this power?

Ye gods. If that be true I’m having nightmares about the next DJ.

>Added to which, the myth of that episode’s length is kinda bigger than the reality - Emohawk was also 40+ minutes, and many others coms close -

Yes, but I hasten to add that “Holoship” is better than “Emohawk”. Therein lies the difference, and that’s why it shoulda had an Xtended version =P .

> Kiss me, Andrew. Kiss me right now.

I give, and I give, and I give some more, but he still goes running at the drop of a hat to any man who can provide him with glee-inducing DVD extras. Heartbreaker.

Awww Arlene. He wasn’t right for you anyway *puts re-assuring arm across your shoulders* You know you are so right about Holoship, I was just thinking the very same thing…

> I give, and I give, and I give some more, but he still goes running at the drop of a hat to any man who can provide him with glee-inducing DVD extras. Heartbreaker.

Oh, come on, you can’t seriously tell me you don’t want to service Andrew sexually right now!

I still love you, you know that ;)

>I still love you, you know that

We all do….:P

I’d rather see footage of Chloë Annett’s foaming twat.

> I’d rather see footage of Chloë Annett’s foaming twat.

Where did that particular in-joke come from again? I’ve forgotten.

>Oh, come on, you can’t seriously tell me you don’t want to service Andrew sexually right now!

I still love you, you know that ;)

Well, I do want to own this DVD release with an almost carnal intensity…

> I’d rather see footage of Chloë Annett’s foaming twat.

Yeah, this leaves me out of the loop here too. Or do I really want to know?

Letter X of this.

Ah. The A-Z. That explains it. Ah. **nods head**

Incidentally, I’m not as keen on seeing that as you lot are. But I suspect I’m going to get outvoted here, aren’t I =P ?

It just depends on how much foam.

> Yes, but I hasten to add that “Holoship” is better than “Emohawk”. Therein lies the difference, and that’s why it shoulda had an Xtended version =P .

But by that token, there should be Xtended versions of another dozen episodes, all of which are better than Holoship.

The point I was making, however redundant, was that this curious demand for Holoship: Xtended only appeared because it was ‘the longest ep to be shot’. But it’s not any more. It only held that position for about a year. It’s just that Emohawk’s length wasn’t so well known until the DVDs

Now the curious demand remains, based - I guess - on Rob mentioning the duration. But nobody’s really explained why. Why this one episode over any other, if not the thing that started it all - length? The deleted scenes are out there and I don’t recall much comment that the material should never have been cut (unlike, say, some of the stuff in Stoke or Back to Reality).

Put it another way - based on the cut scenes, if just one episode were to be Xtended now, which ep would you pick, and why?

I think part of the reason that Holoship Xtended has stuck is because there is a very obvious *reason* for wanting it in people’s heads. People have fallen in love with the relationship between Rimmer and Nirvana, and want to see more of it. And if I haven’t said it before, I’ll say it now - yeah, I wish most of that stuff hadn’t been cut - although, to be fair, I don’t think it really damages the show that it was.

With Emohawk, I didn’t find myself wishing that it hadn’t been cut. Quite apart from the awful “Port/Starboard” gag, it’s just more cockpit stuff - which is great, but extraneous. And also, increasing that first scene would have completely unbalanced the show - that scene is long enough as it is. Increasing the Rimmer/Nirvana stuff wouldn’t unbalance Holoship at all, as it’s what Holoship is all about.

> Quite apart from the awful “Port/Starboard” gag

I love that gag! :-(

Though in fairness it’s better on the page…

I love that gag! :-(

Though in fairness it’s better on the page…

Yeah. If I’m honest, I’m just not convinced by Craig’s performance on that one.

I think you’ve got a point though - Holoship Xtended probably *has* reached a kind of mythic status which is undeserved, and - thinking about it - yeah, I don’t think watching it would add a huge amount over seeing the normal episode, and then watching the deleted scenes. I think there are reasons how it *got* to that mythic status, though, over other episodes.

It’s one of the few episodes of Dwarf where the writers have gone on record as not being that happy at cutting stuff out of. (For instance, Doug says in Heavy Science that “some stories take more telling than others” - a sign that he didn’t really want to cut all that stuff out.) The only other one that springs to mind is in Emohawk, actually - the Bambi stuff with Duane. That’s always going to make people wonder about seeing a full version. If there are scenes cut that the creators don’t much care for, then there’s not much point in editing them back in, even if there are loads of them. But if it goes on record that they cut out loads of stuff they didn’t want to… that’s going to pique people’s interest.

And also, increasing that first scene would have completely unbalanced the show

Mind you, tying together two discussions - wouldn’t it have been interesting to have had an entirely cockpit-set episode of Red Dwarf VI?

I think the thing about Holoship is that, years before Deleted Scenes were a reality, we’d all read the script in Son of Soup (or is it Primordial? I forget. Anyway…) And what a script it is. Plus, I think in the case of Holoship, a lot of the cut material really impacts on the episode. It’s not like cut scenes and gags that don’t really affect the flow - that scene in Nirvanah’s quarters, for example, I don’t think you’d find many fans that’d disagree that, as presented in the script book, it’s one of the best-written sequences in the entirety of Dwarf. Yet in the episode itself, because so much of the dialogue is cut, it feels like a shadow of what it could be. There are lots of other little lines and bits here and there that get chopped out, so it’s not as if an Extended version would add so much to the story, more just that there’s a wealth of great character material that gets lost; because, let’s face it, when you’re running well over time, character-expanding dialogue and elaboration is often one of the first things to go.

Also, I want to see if that Holly gag really breaks up the flow as much as the Deleted Scenes board claims, because I’ve always loved it ;-)

It’s not like cut scenes and gags that don’t really affect the flow - that scene in Nirvanah’s quarters, for example, I don’t think you’d find many fans that’d disagree that, as presented in the script book, it’s one of the best-written sequences in the entirety of Dwarf. Yet in the episode itself, because so much of the dialogue is cut, it feels like a shadow of what it could be.

I think there’s an argument that that scene is actually a lot more subtle in the broadcast version than in the script. In the script, Rimmer’s love for Nirvana is explicit - on-screen, it’s implicit. In an odd way, I think I almost prefer the subtlety of the broadcast version.

It’s things like that which makes me that whilst I’d love to see an Xtended version, for all the fleshing-out it would provide - I’m not actually sure it hurts the show that it was cut. Although the very obvious cut when Rimmer and Nirvana are walking down the corridor, after Nirvana invites Rimmer off to have sex, has always jarred with me - from the very first time I saw it.

But hey - one of us should edit together Holoship Xtended for ourselves, and see how it works…

Sorry, I’ve already got one Dwarf-related re-editing project in the plotting stage… ;-)

> if it goes on record that they cut out loads of stuff they didn’t want to…

Fair point. But then they only mention doing that for Holoship particularly BECAUSE of its mythic length…. :-)

It’s like asking Ed about split-screens in Me2 because it’s Series I’s most extreme example. There are a plenty in Confidence and Paranoia and Future Echoes to talk about…but you interview at the extremes first. I’ve no doubt that Rob and Doug had bits in a third of the shows they’d rather have saved.

Me? I’d have kept the shovel stuff in The Inquisitor, and the alternate Rimmer history in Stoke.

> wouldn’t it have been interesting to have had an entirely cockpit-set episode of Red Dwarf VI?

Despite my love of bottles, I’m concerned to admit that I’m unsure. I adore the full-length version of the Emohawk cockpit scene, but it IS too long for its position in the episode. But it’s also too damn long for that room.

Tikka’s ‘Yard of curry’ scene (which, Xtended, was also too long too soon) was probably better in the original setting of the mid-section. It just gives you room to move, especially for pressure-free chatting. The cockpit’s functional - you need to be actively doing something space-y.

You could do a 30-minute ‘trapped in the cockpit’ story with some space-ness to it - 30 minutes outwitting the Enforcement Orb, with digressions while it breaks off to think - but there’s not enough ‘stuff’ in that room to do even Marooned’s bits of extra story. (Space to burn books and fake guitars while the others are out.)

Every show can do the trapped-in-a-lift ep. But to do it in series six, without room to do much plotting, you probably need running character storylines - stuff that goes beyond the usual Series VI bickering. And ‘Rimmer slept with Lister’s girlfriend and now, trapped in the cockpit, he’ll have to come clean’ has never been very ‘Dwarf’.

Still, more general bottle shows I’m all for. And VIII WOULD have been a great place for one.

All I want to add is that John seems to have replicated my entire opinion. Good work.

Yeah, I think that’s all fair enough about the Rob/Doug interviews with Holoship. I do still think that Seb’s got a point when he says that part of the other reason it’s been grabbed onto is because of the Nirvana/Rimmer character stuff - but I do think in retrospect, it probably didn’t hurt the show. Someone will have do to a fan re-ddit at some point to see properly.

And agreed about a VI cockpit show being tricky. I think you could actually do it - but it’d be hard work. You could perhaps adaprt it to make it a cockpit/mid-section show, though - that’d give you the space…

> I do still think that Seb’s got a point when he says that part of the other reason it’s been grabbed onto is because of the Nirvana/Rimmer character stuff

Indeedy - a factor I’d overlooked. It’s weird how little I value Camille and Holoship’s place in the series. Maybe it’s because direct reference to love feels oddly inappropriate in Dwarf. Or maybe it’s because I’m a SHALLOW AND INSENSITIVE BASTARD.

> You could perhaps adaprt it to make it a cockpit/mid-section show, though

Absolutely - at that point it’s Marooned! :-)

I think Holoship is amongst the best episodes of Dwarf, precisely for the Nirvana/Rimmer sutff - but (irritating first six series disclaimer, sorry) I think Camille *is* one of the weakest. It’s got some great scenes (the opening, Cat meeting himself, etc), and it’s not the love stuff I object to - it’s the parody. The odd parodic reference I don’t mind in Dwarf, but there’s just too much of it in Camille. To the point where the final scene is a slave to the parody, rather than a decent conclusion in itself.

>Maybe it’s because direct reference to love feels oddly inappropriate in Dwarf.

Well if you believe that.

> Or maybe it’s because I’m a SHALLOW AND INSENSITIVE BASTARD.

Then I believe that.

It’s a character comedy, the character stemming from the humanity and the human condition. Love has a hugely important part in the series so it’s only fair you get a couple of episodes specifically about it. Personally I think Holoship is not only one of the series stand out episodes, it’s one of the most important to boot. Plus due to it’s broad strokes and a familiar to almost all concept it’s great for introducing the show to newcomers too.

>And agreed about a VI cockpit show being tricky. I think you could actually do it - but it’d be hard work. You could perhaps adaprt it to make it a cockpit/mid-section show, though - that’d give you the space…

I always kind of looked at Out of Time as this kind of episode to be honest.

And in response to Andrew’s question, which episode would you like to see uncut and extended, essentially as shot?
Without question, unequivocally, early dwarf and in particular anything from Series 1, so the assembly line production of The End is exactly the kind of thing I do want, along with lost episodes like Bodysnatchers. Early dwarf was just bloody brilliant and I couldn’t get enough of it…

Hmm… it’s interesting.

Hmmm…besides “Holoship”, which episodes need an Xtended edition? Well, I think “Better Than Life” wants a bit of recutting—they seem to me to spend too little time inside the eponymous game after rather a lot of run-up to it—but that’s not really an “Xtend it” situation, that’s just a possible recut, isn’t it? Or is there really such a big difference?

I think “Confidence and Paranoia” similarly could use a bit of rejigging, but not necessarily “Xtending” as such. Gosh, this is actually kind of a toughie…

Watching Better Than Life yesterday, I was *amazed* to see how little was actually set in the game itself! Pretty much 20 minutes on Red Dwarf, and 10 in the game. I’d have said it was the other way around if you’d asked me. But it doesn’t feel like it takes too long to get going to me - the episode tricks me into thinking more time is spent in the game than it actually is.

As for Out of Time - yeah, I guess that *is* the bottle show of VI. And yet… it doesn’t feel like it. At all. It’s just so cleverly done. It’s possibly my favourite episode of VI - maybe even over Gunmen.

“What is that thing on your head? I hope you have a quarantine licence for it.”

It’s possibly my favourite episode of VI - maybe even over Gunmen.

No “possibly” about it for me, sir. Second best episode of the lot for me, sir.

The morale meeting *still* cracks me up. No matter how many times I watch it - and I’ve seen it a lot - it’s just fantastic every time. “And as for the Cat, what an unbelievable GIT!”

Really, about the only criticism I have of the episode is the bloody awful bluescreen work during the reality bubbles sequence. But this is probably straying too far off-topic.

I’d love to see a completely extended version of Holoship if only for the full on, hardcore sex scene between Nirvana Crane and Rimmer. That *was* filmed, yeah?

Hello, all. First of all, I must apologise for my prolonged absence from the site - I haven’t had any internet access for OVER A MONTH! So I’ve been living in a monastery in Tibet, free to live a life of religious fulfilment.

Anyhoo, this is (along with the Bodysnatcher news) absolutely terrific! It’s probably the nearest thing we’ll get to a Red Dwarf “pilot” episode.

I was thinking about Pilot episodes the other day, and particularly how much I’d love to see the Blackadder pilot episode! That sounds fascinating, I wish they’d release it somewhere.

Interestingly, the BBC Video release of Series 1 Byte 1, refers to The End as the pilot episode. It seems, in this case it’s just it was also shorthand for ‘first episode’, too, as Dwarf didn;t seem to have a pilot episode in the traditional sense (it seems the entire series of commissioned before anything was shot, most likely due to Paul Jackson having the funding sitting there ready for him, so there would be no need for a pilot). In a way, the original version of the The End is the true pilot, though, much truer than this re-cut version, anyhow.

> In a way, the original version of the The End is the true pilot, though, much truer than this re-cut version, anyhow.

True, but I’ve always loved the way that most pilot episodes exist in a cobbled together parallel world. Doctor Who’s original pilot episode is *fascinating*, for instance.

Similarly, Sex and the City’s pilot episode is miles away from the later style of the series and Carrie’s apartment is totally different.

I can also think of Quantum Leap’s pilot episode, which is grand in scale yet doesn’t quite hit the mark.

By contrast, the original broadcast episode of The End doesn’t seem that far removed from the rest of series 1 in terms of writing style and general structure, but I suppose I’m biased because I first got The End on video when I was 7.

EDIT: You know, I can see a pilot episodes article coming on…

Does anyone else really hate the way “pilot” has become shorthand for “first episode”, even when the episode in question isn’t a pilot?

I agree. This is why people seem to get so confused. The Blackadder pilot episode is not the first episode, The Foretelling is. That doesn’t fit into the series, whereas the X-files pilot isn’t the first episode and yet it is. Odd.

> Does anyone else really hate the way “pilot” has become shorthand for “first episode”, even when the episode in question isn’t a pilot?

Well, to be fair, often the lines between the two is very blurred. Some pilots start out as such but then are used verbatim as the first episode. Lost did that, for example. But, yeah, the indescriminate use of ‘pilot’ as shorthand for first episode is wrong.

However, the BBC (well, BBC Worldwide, at least) seem to consider The End a pilot, even though it isn’t and didn’t serve *any* purpose as such.

But, then again, we don’t know for sure what purpose The End served in the production. It might have been treated as a pilot, for all we know, at least to some extent.

I seem to have about three completely conflicting opinions in this thread.

Well, he could be just using it as shorthand for the first episode… or, as I said, it could well be that The End served as more of a pilot than we know about. I mean, we assume the series was commissioned as one block, but there could well’ve been a deal where they had to prove the validity of the project with a first episode, and in that case The End *would* be a pilot.

Could he just mean that the end is effectively “The pilot” because the script was treated as such?

Or am I just talking shite?

I’m sure he’s just referring to episode one as a ‘pilot’ - mostly, I guess, because the first script was, for a long time, the thing that did the rounds trying to get a series.

It’s an irritating quirk of useage now, agreed. But the series WAS all filmed in one go…and rehearsed as a series the first time around, before the strike. So there isn’t a true ‘Dwarf pilot’ in existence.

BUT - if you go with ‘show filmed as per the original first episode script on which a full series would be based’, well, that’s The End: TOA. It lines up with the Omnibus script much closer than the re-shot & broadcast version.

>I’d love to see a completely extended version of Holoship if only for the full on, hardcore sex scene between Nirvana Crane and Rimmer. That *was* filmed, yeah?

…!

!?!!

…Don’t toy with me like that!

It *was* shot, but unfortunately things got a bit out of hand, and it turned into a bit of a bukkake session.

Thanks, John. That was just…second to none, really.

Ganymede and Titan: Leading the way among Red Dwarf fansites in mind-scarring images.

How is the thought of Jane Horrocks getting jizzed on by various members of the Dwarf cast and crew ‘mind-scarring’?

Well, I certainly don’t expect to see that sort of thing on a Red Dwarf site. I guess my attempt at humorous hyperbole for “eww” didn’t quite come off?

Which is my fault, I guess, ‘cos it’s kind of par for the course here =P .

> How is the thought of Jane Horrocks getting jizzed on by various members of the Dwarf cast and crew ‘mind-scarring’?

Well would you like to be jizzed on by the cast and crew? Would Jane Horrocks?

>Well would you like to be jizzed on by the cast and crew?

Who wouldn’t?….I mean…errm….no! EWWWWWW!

It took a long time for me to work this one out, but what I think you’re asking for is: The End, WITH all the old Norm, but using the remastered Dwarf ship (suitably improved); WITHOUT the field-removal, but WITH the bluescreen heads and added skutters (which, it turns out, AREN’T CGI, fact fans). Correct?

which completely extended episode? Back in the Red part III no er…, Would like to see Holoship because like Julliet May says on the dvd documentary you can tell there has been major edits when Nivarna ties up her dressing gown, then stands up and its undone. I think the better episodes are those that have the comedy constantly along side the storyline, but like in Camille this doesnt really work, on the whole. Towards the end it just gets caught up in the plot and trying to get the parody across as much as possible, then trying to cram in the gags, so this extended could be interesting. But then would like The End as well.

The remastered version is looking more and more saliva-inducingly-good by the day.

Andrew:
Me? I’d have kept the shovel stuff in The Inquisitor, and the alternate Rimmer history in Stoke.

One question, if you know or can find out - WTH did we get Xtended Oroborous and NOT Xtended Stoke? Going 1, 3, 4 on that VHS was always weird, and given that Stoke is BY FAR the better episode….

>Stoke is BY FAR the better episode….

Ack! First John and now this. All this Oroborous bashing! It’s actually one of my favorites from VII. (Then again, Nanarchy is one of my favorites, too, and I’ve been assured I’m in the minority there.)

> WTH did we get Xtended Oroborous and NOT Xtended Stoke?

I’d say because those three are the eps where Doug felt more was cut than he wanted to take out.

> Going 1, 3, 4 on that VHS was always weird, and given that Stoke is BY FAR the better episode….

It’s not weird at all. It’s only weird if this was the only way VII was released on VHS. But all the eps had their own release as well. (Except in Oz, where ‘Xtended’ and ‘The Rest’ came out, but the first tape DID include the regular cut of Stoke.)

‘Weird’ would be a DVD of remastered episodes that included documentaries about the original versions.

Oh.

Bollocks.

Phil:
Ack! First John and now this. All this Oroborous bashing! It’s actually one of my favorites from VII. (Then again, Nanarchy is one of my favorites, too, and I’ve been assured I’m in the minority there.)

I didn’t mind Nanarchy, IIRC, although it doesn’t particularly stick in my mind. Oroborous, however, is my single least favourite episode of all eight series. Bar none.

Andrew:
I’d say because those three are the eps where Doug felt more was cut than he wanted to take out.

OrobourousXt never struck me as much longer than OroborousBc, personally - what’s the timing diff? Then again, an eternity here, an infinity there. Death & Oblivion seem like good options after a while.

OrobourousXt never struck me as much longer than OroborousBc, personally - what’s the timing diff?

There you go.

I’ll get the Ouroboros article done in the next couple of days. I’ve not seen the Xtended stuff for years, so I’ll keep an open mind about that - although considering my opinion of the episode, I’m not too hopeful. But you can always CORRECT ME, Phil.

I liked Ouroboros… I really want to find out what the lovely background music was; it played during the scene where babyLister is left under the pool table, and occurs elsewhere (in another episode even?). And I know I’ve heard it somewhere other than RD.

Ouroboros was… okay. Didn’t really make much sense (being your own father being genetically impossible and all…) but a good introduction for Kochanski.

I guess a reason they did Ouroboros Xtended and not Stoke Xtended was because the Stoke deleted scenes weren’t as good.

I really like Nanarchy, incidentally.

As I mentioned on the Tikka commentary, I like Ouroboros and Duct Soup more than many people seem to. Ouroboros is not without its flaws, but it does contain perhaps my favourite line (in both conception and delivery) of the entirety of VII : “It’s an obscene phone call, sir…”